A Note to Muslims: Stop Saying Crazy Things Posted by Shadi Hamid

I was quietly sipping coffee and checking my mail when I stumbled upon what I, initially, found to be an interesting and relatively inocuous article, the kind that Muslims always send to each other on Muslim listservs because it makes us feel "good," or at least mildy validated.

It's a fairly long piece. And apparently Laurie Goodstein likes to include the whoppers at the end of her articles, and preferably nestled in the very last paragraph. The article talks about two American Muslim clerics, Hamza Yusuf and Zaid Shakir. They are "traditionalists." Traditionalists are usually consistent in condemning Islamic extremism and terrorism and seem to evince a sincere hatred of Bin Laden, Zarqawi, and their ilk. That's the good news. On the other hand, they are deeply suspicious of Western liberalism and pretty much all the foundational tenets of post-enlightenment thought. They are not liberals and they are not democrats. They are often - I'm not sure what else to call it - absolutists.

In any case, here's the part which awoke me from my stupor (also known as the WTF effect):

He [Zaid Shakir] said he still hoped that one day the United States would be a Muslim country ruled by Islamic law, "not by violent means, but by persuasion." "Every Muslim who is honest would say, I would like to see America become a Muslim country," he said. "I think it would help people, and if I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be a Muslim. Because Islam helped me as a person, and it's helped a lot of people in my community."

I had to read it over, because I couldn't believe that a mainstream American Muslim leader would say something so stupid and, well, frightening. It's one thing for him to believe that America should be ruled by Islamic law. It is altogether another for him to imply that all "honest" Muslims believe the same thing. As such, it is incumbent upon moderate Muslims who believe in freedom, democracy, and the US constitution to repudiate such remarks. My God, what's up with Western Muslims wanting to be ruled by shariah? I'm curious, though, how non-Muslims interpret Shakir's remarks. Feel free to post your comments or email me directly with your thoughts.

Comments

[Greg Sanders]

I read the article and thought over how I'd react if a Christian leader said something similar. First, I broke down my view into a fee sections.

1) Wanting my religion to be the majority religion.
2) Wanting the U.S. to be a "Christian nation."
3) Wanting religions law.

I think going to stage one is well within most people's comfort zone. I may be a little worried when some other religion or denomination talks about getting a lot of converts. However, those concerns are hypocritical because I'd like lots of recruits for my denomination. I wouldn't say all members of a universalistic religion, like Christianity or Islam, hold this view. However, I wouldn't get excited if someone made such a generalization.

Stage 2, being a "Christian nation" or a "Muslim nation" bothers me. I'm a pluralist and like to have my church and state seperated. However, saying that the U.S. is a "Christian nation" is well within the mainstream of religious discussion. I'd argue with someone that said "All Christians want America to be/stay a 'Christian nation.'"

Stage 3, Talk of religious law, leaves the mainstream. I'd consider any Christian advocating such a thing a radical. I'd say that Judge Ray Moore, the guy who liked displaying the ten commandaments, seems to be more in the "Christian nation" camp than the "Christian law" camp. As far as I know, he isn't advocating locking anyone up for dishonoring their father and mother, let alone for making a graven image. I'm sure there are Christian theocrats who are advocating Christian law, but I consider them to be fringe groups.

[Than]

It seems natural to a certain extent to desire that your religion dictate the direction the country will take. Us Christians struggle with this a lot (as you can tell). It's such a blurry line between letting your faith inform your politics and making politics a vital part of your faith.

I can see where this guy is coming from in some ways, although he does get over the top with the implications of a self-evident truth that all Muslims should see. I'm sure Muslims are all over the map politically, and reflect the values of their upbringing, culture, and education.

Ultimately, I wouldn't worry about it too much. There are factions in Christianity and Islam alike that desire some sort of theocracy in America, and factions in both religions that can be more sensible about coexistence with a diverse range of people and ideas. If this man's ideas aren't viable politically, they won't amount to much at the end of the day.

[Basil]

I actually know Zaid Shakir fairly well, and I don't believe that he's advocating a "United States of Shariah" or claiming that everu "honest" Muslim wants that, pe se; but rather a country that has laws & regulations rooted in Muslim/Islamic principles. There is a very big difference between the two. Many of our current laws are rooted in Christian principles with Puritanical leanings at some levels. Many others, however, appear to be arbitrary in contrast because they are based on economic ideals rather than moral ideals.

The real issue in the statement that intiated your WTF reaction is the generalized use of "every honest Muslim." What is missing from this statement is the qualifying context. It may be true that most honest Muslims who adhere to a "traditionalist" perspective might agree with him.

However, the vast majority of Muslims in the United States are Eid-Muslims; just like the vast majority of Christians in the United States are Christmas-Christians. Ramadan, Eid, and the occasional Jummah prayer are enough for most of America's Muslims. I've been to all the big Mulsim events, traveled around the country to different Muslim communities, attend fundraisers, mosques, and volunteer meetings. I see all the same people everywhere. It is difficult for me to believe that most of America's 6-10 million Muslims even take part in any form of public/communal religious observance whatsoever.

His claim is not an accurate one, but a hopeful one from his perspective; albeit one that I would have edited were I charged with producing that article because it is a sweeping generalization that either incorrectly includes some people or potentially annoys others. I, for one, believe that the moral and ethical tenets of Islam would benefit this or any country if they were used as part of the legislative foundation. I do not believe, however, that implementing Shariah (as we know it) is a practical, reasonable, or potentially successful approach for the United States.

[Seth Edenbaum]

I came here via Ezra Klein's post @ Tapped, and I'm heartened by the (negative) response to your stupid post.
I'd like to convince the majority to the citizens of this country to give up religion, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. But I'd also like to convince Brazilians that their team is not god's gift to football. I doubt I'll ever get my wish in either case, but I see no reason to condemn Muslims or Brazilians for the desire to proselytize.

[Leah A]

As a Jewish American, I don't feel the least bit threatened by the statement, but that may be a function of the minimal amount of influence the American Muslim community registers on our national debates. I'm more concerned about Pat Robertson's belief that no American Muslim could ever become a Federal judge, therefore, no one should be fearful of Christainizing America.

OTH, a statement like this will be used by the "respectable" would-be Muslim-denigrators, like Malkin et al, who routinely portray CAIR as disciples of Osama you-know-who, so, thanks for reminding us how extreme and unrepresentative of mainstream American values someone like Malkin is.

[Gary Farber]

I took it as no different from the kind of statement James Dobson and Pat Robertson and his ilk make all the time. They want their version of "Christian law" to rule.

So long as nobody uses or advocates violence, and merely advocates democratic change and verbal persuasion, I have no problem. I entirely disagree, of course, but I disagree with people in our body politic all the time, as it happens.

To be sure, many will and do interpret such statements of either flavor as more threatening, and doubtless there are those who are more threatening, but absent evidence that people mean more than they say, I'll listen to what they say, and try not to over-interpret.

Tactically, being more prudent about such statements might be wise for anyone, Muslim, Christian, whatever. But that's a different question than you asked.

I actually blogged the original article; I contemplated adding words to the effect of above, but I get bored with paying too much attention to, or anticipating, crazed right-wingers, since there are so many, and one could make a thousand full-time jobs of that sort of thing, so I didn't.

[Zathras]

I guess that the number of Americans who think the country ought to be governed by sharia, or even under Islamic principles, is about the same as the number of Americans who think our people ought to live by the teachings of Falun Gong, and is substantially smaller than the number of Americans who mourn the demise of the Confederacy. For that reason I don't think what Zaid Shakir said is anything out of the way.

That, though, is the only reason statements like his don't bother me, or most Americans. The introduction of "Islamic principles" to government is a prescription for some of the world's most backward societies, the ones many American Muslims came to this country to get away from. This prescription doesn't offer a lot to us, and I'd be pretty concerned if any large number of people living here thought it did.

[l.e.i.]

while certain elements of democracy, etc. might share commonalities with some principles of islamic shari'ah, i find it quite perplexing that a muslim would prefer a man-made system vs. a divinely revealed one.

[Alan Cooper]

Perhaps the wish for a Muslim country governed by Islamic law is parallel to the wish for a Christian nation governed according to Christian principles, or perhaps it is for sharia law which might be more parallel to asking to be governed by strictly literal Biblical rules. None of the four appeals to me but all are advocated by at least some of the religious "leaders" of each faith.

The claim that "every honest" Whateverist wants a Whateverist government may be denied by what Basil refers to as "Eid-Muslims" and "Christmas-Christians", but to those who believe that their faith clearly demands committment to its establishment in law, those who do not make that demand are legitimately cast as dishonest.

In the case of Christianity, disestablismentarianism is so evident in scriptural teaching that to any reasonable person (ie anyone who agrees with me) it is clear that it is actually those who would establish religious law who are making a dishonest interpretation. Unfortunately, for Islam, so far as I understand it, this is not the case.

[Dina]

I don't think by any means should we rule out the fact that America just might be be a greater country by implementing the shariah. Whats wrong with that idea? Its based on peace, strength, self empowerment and self sustenance. Very much like what we already have in the united states just more sufficient.
I would like to believe there isn't one person out there that could deny the fact that a lot of people have died senseless deaths and it could have been avoided. America is the land of the free but it does have laws and we r in constant search for a better government within the realm.
I'm not saying the time and place didn't make it seem like what he had to say wasn't "threatening" but that's just our unconscious talking. No one said it had to be forced nor that Muslims would form a "jihad" to implement it.
Generally speaking we r affected by the governments laws on a very minimal level depending on how involved you want to get. If America was "free" by its real definition and there still was instead of the united states of bush's law there the united states of sharia law's what difference would make to you?
Do you even know what you are against? Honestly compare the two. And don't use what you see on TV as fact!
If someone said they wish America to be a utopia no one would say anything.. why do we jump to the account of this?
America did not start out christian! nor has it been formed strictly on only Christianity. The law is based on all different faiths cultures brought together to accommodate the people living in it. THAT'S what the Constitution is based on. Who r u to say Islam would rule that out? Islam is merely a name to a law, that has bean turned into whatever label suits those who are afraid of it.
I believe he said that out of faith. I believe he implies to say those whom don't believe Islam to be ideal, Don't understand it! There for because he believes in the prosperity it would bring its natural he would think it to be just right.

[rosignol]

I don't think by any means should we rule out the fact that America just might be be a greater country by implementing the shariah. Whats wrong with that idea?

Only the complete and total lack of examples of implementing sharia having that result in the real world.

I would like to believe there isn't one person out there that could deny the fact that a lot of people have died senseless deaths and it could have been avoided.

Oh, people will argue just about anything... but I happen to agree with you on this one.

However, it should be remembered that most of those people who died senseless deaths did so in places other than the United States (or even North and South America). The bodycount of WW1, WW2, or the Soviet and Chinese 'agricultural reforms' dwarfs anything that's happened in the US since the founding of the Republic.

Sure, there are some problems in the US.

Sharia is not the solution to those problems.

I'm not saying the time and place didn't make it seem like what he had to say wasn't "threatening" but that's just our unconscious talking. No one said it had to be forced nor that Muslims would form a "jihad" to implement it.

http://www.asia-pacific-action.org/news/dpa_islamicpoliceterrorizingaceh_100306.htm

In Aceh, muslim police are enforcing sharia rules on everyone- not just muslims.

Do not insult my intelligence by trying to tell me they would do things differently here.

Generally speaking we r affected by the governments laws on a very minimal level depending on how involved you want to get. If America was "free" by its real definition and there still was instead of the united states of bush's law there the united states of sharia law's what difference would make to you?

The laws of the United States are the result of American voters designating representatives who debate and compromise to create laws. Those laws are constantly amended, repealed, or otherwise modified when errors, contradictions, or unintended consequences become apparent.

The laws of Sharia are the result of islamic scholars telling people what god wants to be allowed or not allowed.

That is a very big difference.

Do you even know what you are against? Honestly compare the two. And don't use what you see on TV as fact!

Even when it's factual?

If someone said they wish America to be a utopia no one would say anything.. why do we jump to the account of this?

Because American 'utopians' did not kill thousands of Americans about 5 years ago.

Muslims did.

America did not start out christian!

Yes, it did. The 13 colonies that became America were originally British, and Britain has an official (state) church, which is a Christian denomination.

How is it that you did you not know this?

nor has it been formed strictly on only Christianity. The law is based on all different faiths cultures brought together to accommodate the people living in it. THAT'S what the Constitution is based on.

Have you ever read the US Constitution?

It is very explicitly not based on any faith. There are no references to the Bible, Torah, Koran, or any other religious text in the US Constitution. None. Nor is there any mention of god. Instead, we have this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, [...]

Implementing sharia would be establishing a religion, as a holy text would become law. That is explicitly forbidden by the 1st Amendment.

Who r u to say Islam would rule that out?

No one has said that in English that I know of. But the behavior of muslims and the treatment of non-muslims in majority-muslim countries proves that it would.

What would you say if muslims in America were subject to the same rules as christians in Saudi Arabia?

Islam is merely a name to a law, that has bean turned into whatever label suits those who are afraid of it.

...

I believe he said that out of faith. I believe he implies to say those whom don't believe Islam to be ideal, Don't understand it!

In my ideal world, people who steal would repay the value of what was stolen- not lose body parts.

In my ideal world, people would eat what they wished.

In my ideal world, all citizens would be equal in the eyes of the law, regardless of gender or sexual preference.

In my ideal world, people would dress as they wish.

In my ideal world, people are able to choose who or what to worship as they please, and change what they worshipped without legal consequence- or not worship anything at all.

In my ideal world, what goes on between consenting adults in the privacy of their own bedrooms is only of concern to those participating.

In my idea world, people could say what they wished, so long as it was truthful, about anyone, be it themselves, a neighbor, a politician, a prophet, a policeman, or a president, without fear of any legal penalty.

Sharia is not compatible with my ideal world.

I understand that clearly.

There for because he believes in the prosperity it would bring its natural he would think it to be just right.

If sharia brings prosperity, why are the richest nations in the world ones that have not adopted sharia?

Why are so many of the nations that have adopted sharia so poor?

[Basil]

A few comments to other respondants:

...i find it quite perplexing that a muslim would prefer a man-made system vs. a divinely revealed one. [by l.e.i.]

FYI, sharia is man-made too. It is but a type of legal structure built on a combination of principles derived from Divine Revelations (the Qur'an), the practices of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and the social context of the pre-modern Arabian peninsula.

The introduction of "Islamic principles" to government is a prescription for some of the world's most backward societies... [by Zathras]

Wrong. Muslim governments are backward in that the people running them are incapable of realizing that their methods and norms are antiquated. The problem is the people, not the principles. Any non-xenophobic theologian or scholar (Karen Armstrong, Marc Ellis, John Esposito, et. al.) who has studied Islam will tell you that the principles are by-and-large the same as those that we see in most world religions. Similarly, any reputable Muslim scholar will tell you that the reason these governments and society are so backward is that they have haphazardly replaced Islamic principles with selfishness and sloth.

In Aceh, muslim police are enforcing sharia rules on everyone-not just muslims. Do not insult my intelligence by trying to tell me they would do things differently here. [by rosignol]

You've insulted your own intelligence by citing a single region and not applying any scientific/statistical method to your conclusion finding process. Is Sharia enforced on non-Muslims in Turkey? Morocco? Egypt (very high Christian population)? UAE? Pakistan? India? There's even an Irish pub that serves Guinness in Kabul, Afghanistan. Using Acheh as an example is like claiming that all Austrian-born politicians are evil because Hitler was one.

Because American 'utopians' did not kill thousands of Americans about 5 years ago. Muslims did. [by rosignol]

While that may be true, don't conflate a secondary common feature with the primary: They had a political gripe with America, not a religious gripe. To claim the latter is as ignorant as the act itself. I think if we started trading statistics on deaths inflicted by the U.S. on the soil of foreign sovereign nations versus those inflicted on our own soil, a tremendously huge imbalance would become obvious and you would understand that politically-motiviated violence is not tantamount to religiously-motivated violence.

If sharia brings prosperity, why are the richest nations in the world ones that have not adopted sharia? Why are so many of the nations that have adopted sharia so poor?

Don't tell that to the Emirates or the Saudis! Lol.. The fact of the matter is, that there are VERY few countries that actively enforce Sharia as general law. Among them is Saudi Arabia, and they are very wealthy. Most Mulsim countries are less-developed because they got lazy during the latter stages of the Caliphate and later during the time of the Ottoman Empire. When Europe was in the Dark Ages, Muslim countries ruled the world. Just as all empires fall, the Muslim empire fell because they neglected to continue their pursuit of the sciences, arts, and philosophy that helped get them there. While they sat, got fat and lazy (like most Americans do now), Europe enjoyed its renneaisanse, and emerged as a world power. On the heels of its success was born the United States of America, today's empire. It's the cycle of things, and right now Muslim countries are on the short-end of the proverbial stick.

[Zathras]

So Sharia has not failed, because it has never actually been tried. I would have thought that kind of reasoning died with the Soviet Union.

[J Thomas]

Zathras, no. Libertarians use the same reasoning.

Advocates of free enterprise will use it if they face an economic crisis bad enough to get them to admit that what we have is not actually free enterprise.

[jay]

This is very interesting site

[Jack Sunfil]

I am an East Asian.
I think the problem between the middle east and the U.S. (sometimes, British) is not only religion conflict. It is not because of jealous of prosperity. It's culture conflict, it is also an outcome of U.S.'s foreign policy. Since culture determines foreign policy, we can say that the mutal hatred is based on cultural conflict. But cultural conflict is too abstract to disentangle.
So let's talk about how U.S. foreign policy led to the mutal hatred.
Pakistan's president Musharraf once said before his visit to the U.S. that, if the U.S. can handle the conflict between Israel and Palestan in a more fair way, the terrists population would be reduced by 70%.

In this world, the most thing can stimulate hatred is unfair, not jealousness. An good example to support my argument. In a country with unfair social system, poor people hate rich people. But in a country with a rather fair social system (like U.S.), poor people think it is fine to have rich people.

I have the feeling that when I deal with Americans individually, they are wonderful. But in terms of their foreign policy, I think the terrists are deserve to be sympathetic. Why? Because the Middle East muslims feel that they have no way to win the war with Israel and U.S. So they are despair and resort to terrism.

Sure that the muslim culture and religion may be a barrier to improve productivity and generate prosperous countries. But why should the Americans care, if a country choose to stay on its own style.

Once, I talked to a American old couple. The lady said, she didn't know why the U.S., had a close tie with Israel. I didn't discuss with her at that time. But her words reflect many Americans' confusing. Many Americans' contribute their tax to war in Middle East and they don't know why.

Some of them may think it is because U.S. and Israel have common values.

No, that is at most a minor reason. The U.S. is stuck in the quagmire of middle east because the strong influence of Jewish Americans on U.S.' politics and foreign policy. A second reason is that during the cold war, the U.S. try to control middle east, afraid that The Soviet Union will get it. And after cold war, U.S., still follow the thinking of controlling and deems it is good for stable oil supply.

A take-home message for you readers:
if U.S. can be more fair in it's foreign policy, it's image will be much better and terrists attack will be reduced.
But how can you get rid of the influence of Jewish Americans? How can you get more lay Americans' to care about their foreign policies and spend more time to research and think about it?

[tyler]

can someone tell me please what sharia is. and not a biased view please? and not like---i think sharia is really great or i think its really dumb--just the facts. cuz wherever i look its always a biased view. thanks

[lisa]

hmm. I read that too in the article, and I was kind of impressed at his honesty. I think a lot of people who find peace in a new religion, or in re-embracing their family's religion, would agree with that.

Damn, I can think of several Muslim converts who would honestly agree with that, Muslim re-embracers from secular families, Jewish born agains, and Christian born agains. And, to be honest, I agreed with that, even if it went too against liberal-tolerant values to admit it in the beginning.

But it was a challenge, to realize that each different person has a different path. No, I think there are a lot of people who don't realize that. I think they are just so affected by how their new faith has helped them.

It didn't surprise me, the quote, and I don't think it's out of line with a Lot of people's views on the superiority and or universality of their particular religion or perspective. The thing is, it takes a particular maturity, an openness towards seeing the best in others, and to really learn how to stop just validating your own perspectives, to come to the conclusion that diversity is really how it's meant to be. Those that are open towards evolution will realize that its just a phase. But especially when you become kind of a leader in your own community, when you get some kind of social value from defending values or whatever, its hard to evolve in your views. Ya gotta have courage.

There are a lot of Western Muslims that want to be ruled by shariah. That's a modernity thing- to idealize a communal-legal lifestyle of the past, or of tradition, or whatever. Like American Jews who idealize the idea of living "a national existance" with their "national brethren" on "the land of their forefathers". I'm not writing that with derision- I think it would be an emotional and moving experience for those Jews, and for those Muslims, to live out that fantasy--- but I think the fantasy is so fulfilling because they've built it up as the respite, the only relief, from the alienation of a world with prejudice, ignorance, latent or overt misunderstanding and bias. That shit hurts. Who's to judge those that create castles in the sky?

Well, yeah, if one starts to get power and build those castles on the ground, that might be a good time to start saying, hey wait a minute. Or beforehand? I don't know. If people are pushed to castles in the sky because of alienation and prejudice, it's very hard to try to get them to question those castles without empowering their feelings of alienation and prejudice. And there are Way Too Many People that, god help us, attack those castles and those ideas due to motivations that DO INVOLVE, to variously large or small degrees, discrimination and prejudice. And that shit cannot be hidden. One can say the right thing from the wrong reasons--- and the people on the other side will Always feel those wrong reasons. That's why it's all about niya, as they say.

[Ahmed]

Hey Shadi,

Doesn't it make you uncomfortable to know that the rest of the Ummah know you're an Uncle Tom?

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[الاندرويد]

you stupid idiot you just speaking bla bla bla without knowing any thing go study the sharia and Islamic law right and wish that usa ruled by Islamic sharia and don't worry it will very soon

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I have to agree on this "I had to read it over, because I couldn't believe that a mainstream American Muslim leader would say something so stupid and, well, frightening. It's one thing for him to believe that America should be ruled by Islamic law. It is altogether another for him to imply that all "honest" Muslims believe the same thing.

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